Dear Haijin, visitors and travelers,
Recently I got an email of one of our haiku family members with the question to remove haiku from one of our cdhk e-books, because I hadn't asked permission to use those haiku. Of course I have removed the haiku, but ... it kept me busy.
In my opinion the haiku, tanka and other texts linked to cdhk I can use for our cdhk e-books. I always give credit to the poets, because that's normal in my opinion. This 'event' asks for response and I think that this will be a shock to you all.
If you are participating in cdhk than your works become part of the public domain therefore I am free to use it. I don't have to ask your permission or have to credit you, but because I think it's more than normal to credit all of your work I always give credit to the poets who submit and participate in every e-book I create.
All the rights of the works stay at their authors.
I love to hear your opinion about this ' permission issue'
Have a great Sunday,
Chèvrefeuille, your host.
Kristjaan, you should always ask people if they consent to their work being used in your ebooks and I strongly disagree with your statement. You should always credit people, it is the right thing to do. Linking to your website does not mean that works are in the public domain. Writers retain copyright to their work (at least by the laws of the United States) and retain choice about where those works may be published or not published. I believe at one time you asked who wanted to be part of your e-books and I think that is good. When I publish a haiku on my blog, it does not give anyone automatic right to use that haiku in any way, just because it is out on the internet. Someone may also link to an article in a major newspaper, and you would not assume you had the right to republish that. I really appreciate all you do here, but I definitely think you need to learn more about how this all works. Work that is very old, such as Shakespeare or Sherlock Holmes, may be out of copyright. You may find the Wikipedia article helpful here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
ReplyDeleteDear Cathy,
DeleteThank you for your response. I agree with you to give credit always to the poets, as I by the way do always. Carpe Diem is open for everyone, but in my opinion if you publish or link to Carpe Diem your work becomes part of this weblog and therefore I think you have given permission to use it.
I make cdhk with a lot of pleasure and a lot of time. I don't earn money or something for it, so there is no commercial benefit of it.
But ... because of copyright ... I will not create e-books anymore in which I use haiku or other texts by the participants. No stage anymore for haiku poets to profile their art.
Today our 2nd Theme Week starts and in the introduction I again have announced to make an e-book afterwards of the Theme Week in which I also gather the submitted haiku or other Japanese poetry forms. If you or another member of our haiku loving family don't want to be published in that Theme Week e-book than please don't respond or submit your haiku. If you or another haiku family member will however submit their work (haiku, tanka or another Japanese poetry form) than by doing so they give me permission to publish their work.
By the way thank you for the wiki-link. I will read it.
I was delighted to see some of my writing included in your latest e-book, Kristjaan,and you included my copyright statement with every single haiku/tanka, so there was no doubt about it. When I contribute to your post, I know that people will read my words along with the words of other like-minded poets. If I didn't want to do that, I wouldn't take part. Please feel free to use anything I post here.
DeleteFirst of all, Cathy: you are incorrect, and in the spirit of CDHK you are simply not acting in good spirit.
DeleteYou know full well that it is not about a haiku published on your blog, but tha it is a haiku you have linked onto someone else's blog, who also clearly states he is publishing ebooks of the material on his blog. He makes no financial gain from this - you have no legal standing whatsoever. You are recognised as the writer of the haiku at all times and you lose no control over what you call your ''work.'' Frankly, yu also full well know, or should, that when you submit your ''work'' to other similar sites you lose the right to publish it yourself for periods of usually 6 months, so comparatively you have no legal leg to stand on regarding use o not of your haiku. However, I suggest YOU understand the workings of the law. There is NO copyright infringement the minute you link up to CDHK. You are deliberately being misleading by suggesting there is. Your ''work'' has always been acknowledged. I strongly suggest you apologise for our aggressive tone.
Chev
DeleteCathy is simply not correct, and if she was seriousl trying to make a point, she would have quoted an exact part of a link, not the whole thing, forcing you to try to find something in it that supports her case. In fact, she is incorrect, and in my view deliberately misleading, as well as destroying the good faith and spirit of CDHK. I say deliberately because this has nothing to do with publishing a haiku on a blog. That is a lie, simply, and sorry to say so, but she knows full well it has to do wth linking onto yur blog, which she does I am sure in the quest of readers. The difference between linking voluntarily onto your site and appearing on your site in an ebook is desultory: by tha I mean the law will not recognise any difference. Her legal argument therefore has no validity, especially as you always give credit (sorry Cathy, you are lying again) and you do not make any fincial gain.
But it is her moral argument I have the greatest difficulty with. Her attitude is simply shocking and culturally unacceptable. Please do publish this comment, because sometimes things have to be said for what they are.
Assomeone who has written a book, I would just like to add that people who are really professional about what they do are different in their approach, and I sincerely hope CDHK can see the validity of my last statement.
Dear Kristjaan,
ReplyDeleteI am with you on this.
First of all - I have never perceived myself a poet or an artist. Neither self-proclaimed one, nor most definitely professional one, knowing very well I have a very long way to go to be anywhere near that "title". I write haiku often - on CDHK as well as on my blogs, and I have never had a problem with Kristjaan using something I have written. I respect him as a haiku poet and the host of CDHK, and I have never thought my writing could be misused by him in any possible way.
I am happy to share my feelings, perception of life, beliefs through my haiku, and I am on CDHK to learn, to share, to get inspired. Not to put any copyright stamps on my written words.
Well said
DeleteTruly I am shocked at this kind of response. Anyone should feel complimented to be included in one of your E books.I know I was.As you said, the work is credited and is in the public domain if submitted to this site .As of yet, the laws of the United States are not universal. Please keep on publishing your Ebooks Kristjaan.Do not let the actions of one disgruntled person spoil the haiku experience for everyone. Make a statement somewhere that people who submit work to your blog will have their work included in your Ebooks unless otherwise stated by request by email. If they do not want to be included, they might extend the courtesy to you by informing you that they do not wish to be included in the Ebooks. I know I speak for a lot of us who thank you profusely for the tireless work you do, without profit but for the sheer love and joy of poetry that you generously share with us. I do hope you change your mind about the Ebooks.They are just marvellous.
ReplyDeleteBest wishes and Many Thanks
Rall
Ah Rall this is a most useful comment, wish I'd read it before I made mine ... Bravo!
DeleteDear friends and haiku family members,
ReplyDeleteYour responses bringing me to tears. Thank you all for being here and share your wonderful words and haiku at Carpe Diem Haiku Kai.
I was in a kind of shock as I read the email to which I refer in this post and had almost closed Carpe Diem Haiku Kai, but after a while as I could look at it in a different way in a more open and loving way I decided to post this CD-Extra episode about Publishing Permission.
I was a bit anxious for your responses, but you have grant me with only loving words. Thank you.
Your host,
Chèvrefeuille
I can only imagine what sadness that that e-mail brought you. You've been doing a brilliant and selfless job for the promotion of our beloved haiku and it's much appreciated by most of us. I personally have always felt privileged to have my work published by you in the various anthologies you've created over the months. I'm afraid you will sometimes find people who because of their own demons lash out hurtfully ... but please never doubt that you are admired and loved.
DeleteNamaste, Bastet
I agree wholeheartedly with Ese. I "get" so much more than I "give" here at CDHK
ReplyDeleteAs I see it, you are absolutely right. It is still an on-line feature. Personally, I love the idea, and appreciate the work you put into it.
ReplyDeleteDear Kristjaan and Forest Tinker,
ReplyDeleteI was not trying to be aggressive and not attacking anyone. I have always said that I appreciate the work that Kristjaan and everyone else puts into this blog (I have even guest hosted), and I was not selectively citing pieces of the Wikipedia article. Kristjaan asked for our feedback, so I gave my honest feedback. I find Forest Tinker's aggressive attitude unacceptable, and for the record, I was not the person who asked for my haiku to be removed. In the past, I have always give permission for Kristjaan to republish my work, but I stand by what I have said. Just because I am linking to a site, it does not give permission for that site to release the work in a publication of any kind, whether for profit or not, without express permission. I do see myself as a professional, and I disagree with the interpretation given here as do major writing organizations and unions (in the U.S., I do not know about foreign policies). I suggest that you put a disclaimer somewhere boldly on the site to let people know this is your policy. I have enjoyed being a part of this community for a long time, and have always given a lot of praise and promotion to this community, but I am now going to withdraw from it. Good luck with your future endeavors. If anyone wants to read my haiku, I will be over at Haiku Plate Special where I have always been, and going forward I ask that you do not republish or use any of my haiku. Thank you, and again, I appreciate what your are trying to do Kristjaan, but I do not agree with this policy and so must withdraw.
Cathy I am sorry that you think my tone was strong. I was simply shocked that anyone should take such an uneccesary stance, in fact I am not sure what that stance is. Thank yu for stating that it was not you who raised the issue in the first place, and the person who did needs to honestly stand by their actions. My point about professionalism relates to attitude and logic, and may I just add you again are willfully deceiving by stating that ''major writing organisations and unions disagree with the interpretation given here.'' I am sorry to tell you that you have no legal grounds to make that statement whatsoever.
DeleteAlso, because of the new policy, please remove any work of mine you have in these e-books. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteIt's sad to see you leave Cathy, but I respect that. I will remove your work from the e-books except from the e-book which I created for our first Theme Week, because at the start of that Theme Week I announced that I would create an e-book of that Theme Week. You have participated in that Theme Week and so you did know that I would create an e-book afterwards. You didn't withdraw than so I cannot remove your work from that e-book.
DeleteI thank you for all you have done for CDHK and I wish you good luck with whole my heart with your future endeavors.
Namaste
Much appreciated. Namaste back.
ReplyDeleteBeloved Kristjaan,
ReplyDeleteI consider it an honor for you to publish any of the work I share on CDHK. May the Creator bless and comfort you in this endeavor to teach, grow and encourage your followers.
Dear Kristjaan, When I read this post I considered requesting that my blog URL be published along with my name if any of my work is used in your e-books. Most of my haiku forms part of a haiga and is often supported by prose and I wanted readers to have the option of seeing my work in its original format.
ReplyDeleteUpon reading all the comments I find I agree with Cathy. I don't think linking work to a blog gives the author of that blog the right to then publish my work in whatever format they choose without asking my permission. Of course I understand that by contributing to the first Theme Week and reading of your plans to include some the haiku in an e-book I gave permission for work to be included in that book. What I disagree with is the idea that any work I link to this site at any time becomes your property and gives you the right to reproduce that work in whatever format you choose without notifying me.
For that reason I have decided to withdraw from CDHK and any other challenges you host on the internet.
I have not made this decision lightly. I respect your work and also that of Hamish Gunn and have learned much from both of you. Of course I understand that you put a lot of work into the site and that it is an honour to be included in a collection of work curated by you or any other editor. However I strongly disagree with the notion that any work posted on the internet can be reproduced by anyone at any time without notification.
Thank you for all past inspiration and support. Yours - Suzanne.
(for anyone other than Kristjaan who is reading this I am not the person who made the original complaint).
Suzanne, the issue is not CDHK, the issue is a personal one, I know, and I do not think CDHK should be cited as a reason to withdraw from anything. Please think again, it has nothing to do with people wanting to reproduce work over the internet. I really do think this has been taken out of context, and your writing is simply too good!
DeleteYou are welcome to read my work on my blog any time Hamish. As a writer and an artist I defend the right of any creative to do what they can to retain control of their own intellectual property. I reject the notion that simply linking to CDHK gives Kristjaan permission to reproduce my work in any format he chooses.
DeleteI agree placing work on the internet does put work in the public domain where others can reproduce without permission. This is an issue artists and writers are currently wrestling with. Withdrawing from this site is one way I am reclaiming a modicum of control over the way my work is reproduced.
Thank you for your support of my work. I respect the work of both you and Kristjaan but choose to work independently at this point. I can be contacted on Facebook or by email at any time.
I have no issues with your policy. I think if we link to your site our poem is part of the CDHK domain.
ReplyDeleteIf you publish a book it is free for anyone to download, meaning it is part of the public domain. I think this is where people are getting hung up is on these two words: public domain. They have to remember there are lots of books that are now printed in the public domain (check the Gutenburg Press) but that does not give people the right to claim that they wrote it or reprint it without the author's name. But if you are worried about someone misusing your work, the web is not the place for you because there will always be people who plagiarize things or just don't bother to give credit.
In my opinion, there probably not a large number of people out to steal our haiku.
Second - this is not the place for hurtful statements. We should all abide by Kristjaan's rules or not play. We should also not demand that her remove our work from previous publications. Remember the people who have downloaded them all ready have it, and that is a lot for us to expect of our host. We should all take a deep breath, calm down and write an uplifting haiku.
Well, this is a ruckus! Frankly Kristjaan, I forgot that you were doing those e books. Now I must go back, download and print out all that I am involved in so I can give copies to my friends and family. This will at the very least give my brother a leg to stand on as he is the only person I know that goes around telling everyone his sister is a "poet". :) Write on, everybody.
ReplyDeleteWell, well. After all is said and done I can only say that this is most unfortunate. To say I'm shocked would be an understatement. I have come to love CDHK so much and consider Kristjaan a good and generous person, very knowledgeable. I've learnt so much from him. Really, for me a simple woman from Ghana seeing my work published in an e-book is simply super. So what is all this about? Let us have some peace and continue in the love we have shared here.
ReplyDeleteThank God Kristjaan has handled this maturely and in good faith as the true leader he is.
Hamish, my friend, calm down for me. Some fights are simply not worth it.
My work is open to publication and thank you, Kristjaaen for citing the poet in the books!
ReplyDeleteWell, it's good to discuss these things openly and I feel I learned something. Family members don't always agree and that's okay as long as we can treat each other with kindness! Hopefully, we all keep writing and learning and listening to each other 🙂
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDearest Kristjaan:
DeleteI've been away and not followed what's been happening here. After having read a few comments and more ore less imagining who brought up the problem in the first place I'd like to comment ...
One misapprehension is because of your unfortunate use of the word "PUBLIC DOMAIN" which is a very specific thing. Someone's work is not public domain just by linking to another writer's blog. Many writers have a copy right notice on their blog and have outlined specific rules for the usage of their work if they have put up a copy right notice and even so, there are rules that cover a person's writing rendering it their work and not public domain. One doesn't render one's work public domain because they participate and therefore link up with the prompter's blog. Unless it's stated clearly that work presented/linked up with the site will be used in future publications and the writer's consent to this is given implicitly by linking there is no implicit consent for any other publication other than that specific page. In any case a writer's rights are not in discussion.
There are sites where I've read that upon the link-up one gives permission for future publication and I have decided to participate or not. That being said - even in that case one's work isn't "public domain". It means that permission is given for publication by the prompter because their work has been submitted to the site ... and unless one has formally renounced one's rights to their intellectual work it remains their property.
I feel that this is a very unfortunate misunderstanding and has been blown out of proportion.
We've all been privileged to have seen our work printed through Kristjaan's efforts. It's unfortunate that such a problem has arisen, but would have sooner or later. I for one am very happy to have my work published and I think Kristjaan has been very open about giving full credit (and rights) to the haiku writers. However, to avoid future incomprehension, I think it would be wise to write on the link-up formula that it is understood that work submitted may be published in an e-book at some future time and that intellectual rights of the authors remain their own. As for specific themes ... if my memory serves me correctly Kristjaan has alreadys mentioned that a book would be produced from the haiku presented on specific themes on several occasions.
I do hope that Hamish will take Celestine's advice and for her sake just calm down. Creating hurt feelings doesn't solve issues.
Thanks to you once again Kristjaan for all your efforts in the field of the promotion of haiku and waka ... of course you know that in working with the public there will be some hiccoughs and misunderstandings ... I'd look at this as an opportunity to clear-up a possible issue before it became a real problem in the future.
Best regards to all ... Bastet
Bastett, when I need advice I can ask for it thanks. People have caused hurt for no reason, and this has absolutely nothing to do with public domain whatsoever. Why not keep going in the spirit of CDHK, instead of proposing redundant legal thoughts? All the best!
DeleteYes, people have caused hurt and for no reason - except for their own ego. This would have been a storm in a tea cup if someone hadn't decided to call another blogger a liar because that blogger had articulated an opinion - requested among other things - the spirit of CDHK was NOT in question from what one could read from the declaration made by Kristjaan.
DeleteThank you, oh sage one for quite rightly underlining the redundancy of my comment ... I really should have read all the comments before saying anything, then I would have seen that Rall had come up with the solution and Kristjaan had acted upon that suggestion.
Of course you certainly don't need any advice from anyone, especially me, nor was mine advice ... only a wish that you'd learn to be more diplomatic and less opinionated.
All the best! Bastet
You too, Bastet.
DeleteKristjaan,
ReplyDeleteFor my part, should a haiku of mine be used in an e-book created by CDHK I'd be more than honoured. That you credit the author is, of course, necessary and you've done that without fail. The e-books are made available free of charge and I assume that it will remain that way. I have downloaded several and use it as inspiration. Should you, however, decide to make copies or selections from various e-books available for sale, I would imagine the writers participating in CDHK will be notified beforehand and consensus will be reached. You may need to do the CDHK work full time at some point, as it is a growing community and the project would then have to be financially sustainable. Putting the e-books together must take a lot of your own private time and I express my heartfelt thanks for your efforts.
Much regard.
All the CDHK e-books will stay available for free. I only give time to create them and I am always happy as I can share all the beauty which is published here at CDHK or through CDHK.
DeleteDon't worry that I would ask something for the e-books I create. It's just that I enjoy creating them and I am always happy that the CDHK e-books are welcomed very positive.
Consider an old-fashioned example of the important distinction raised by [Georgia Koch March 22, 2016 at 10:34 AM]: being published is *not* the same as being in the public domain. The publisher of a printed book retains copyright and should be asked B4 any republishing, even tho the publisher has sold some copies. Practice gets complicated. For example, brief quotations in a review are OK w/o asking permission. A haiku is so brief that it may be awkward to discuss it w/o quoting it in full. I hope that CDHK folks can disagree in gray areas w/o being disagreeable and w/o going to extremes like withdrawing entirely.
ReplyDeleteI am glad that Chèvrefeuille has posted what had been a reasonable assumption about permissions as an explicit ground rule for participating. That should avoid most future misunderstandings.
My own blog has no copyright notice. I would be annoyed if anybody ever plagiarized something from it; I have no objections to quotation with proper credit.
This is a very important discussion. We should familiarise ourselves with the copyright laws of the countries we live in. What is legal in America doesn't necessarily apply to Europe or South Africa. It is our duty to ourselves and ur work to know what can and can't be done with work that is published on our blogs, what happens when it is linked to another site such as CDHK or Dverse or the myriad other host sites. It may be worthwhile to research the policies of sites such as Friday Fictioneers, hosted by Rochelle Wissoff-fields on Addicted to the Color Purple, Dverse Poets, etc. I have bookmarked the following sites for my own information some time ago:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.smashingmagazine.com/2007/07/copyright-explained-i-may-copy-it-right/
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
It seems that work published on one's site is NOT in the 'public domain'. Work available for reproducing in the 'public domain' means copyright of a particular book, poem, essay has expired. For instance see Project Gutenberg. They have a long complicated explanation of the books that are available for free download.
If I quote from another site on the internet, I have to quote the author and site where I got the quote from.
Hope people find this helpful.